My Mother's Daughter.

...well I was for one weekend anyway. June Cleaver, AKA my Mother, as she is sometimes referred to as, is the biggest clean freak I know. Gerry often jokes that those genes didn't rub off on me. She is truly a domestic Goddess in every sense. Me on the other hand...well, my favorite saying is, 'Why did God create restaurants if he wanted us to cook?' Seriously though, I love a home cooked meal and a clean home, and I can do both, BUT, I don't enjoy either (Sorry Honey). Mom on the other hand, sings her way through a day of spring cleaning and enjoys every minute of it. Gerry and I cleaned like we were expecting the Queen of England, or even better our new little bundle of joy very soon. Walls were washed down, carpets steam cleaned, every room dusted and organized, and each and every single bit of dog hair was vacuumed up. WHEW!!...it was a long and very busy weekend, but we accomplished a ton.

We are expecting a full house this coming weekend for our baby celebration with over 60 friends already RSVP'd, and I'm sure a few more will show up. The more the merrier!!! So as you can imagine, we have been busy shopping and preparing for that as well. It should be a lot of fun, getting everyone together to enjoy looking at all of the pictures from our trips to India, some Indian dishes (yes, from a restaurant), BBQ burgers and dogs, karaoke, games, swimming and just fun in the hot, hot, sun (they are calling for 112 degrees on Saturday).

We go for our consultation with the Pediatrician tomorrow evening and it will be interesting to see what his reaction is to our story.

We got an update from our wonderful Docs the other night. They were excited about their latest arrival. Chaya (whom I have been in contact with from the moment she began with SI) and her husband Sam's little girl Ella arrived via surrogacy earlier this week. Chaya is a wonderful person and so very deserving of this amazing gift. We are so happy for her and hubby. They have started the way for the many upcoming deliveries in the next few months...ours included.

KT is doing great and getting big, we begged for a picture of her belly when she came to the clinic next and were surprised to find one when we opened our email this morning. We can see her belly is really getting bigger. The docs said she looks great and continues to feel well. J her hubby, continues to take her to all of her medical appointments and is taking such wonderful care of her while she rests at home.

Our baby belly at 32 weeks.

And once again with all this preparation, of course we are falling behind in our baby updates so, here are 2 weeks in one...

Your Baby at 31 weeks:

From this week on, your baby will continue to gain around ½ pound a week until shortly before birth.

Other highlights this week:

Due to increasing space constraints, your baby's arms and legs stay drawn up close to the body now, known as the fetal position (oh, so that's where that name came from!). Plus, your baby can now process information from all five senses—so she'll be all set to smell the pureed peas, taste them, feel them as she mashes them into her hair, hear you crack up and then see the flash as you grab the camera to snap picture after picture.

By now, your baby's lungs are the only system not fully mature. And by mature, we're not saying that the rest of your baby's systems are mature enough to be out past 10 PM with the neighborhood hooligan, just that her lungs need a little bit more time to bake before they can kick it in the outside world.

Your baby weighs about 3½ pounds and measures a little over 16 inches, about the same length as that miniskirt you used to wear (and will again someday!).

Your Baby at 32 weeks:

Although your baby will still remain active, his days of trying out for Cirque du Soleil are nearly over. About this time your baby will settle into the head-down position in preparation for birth.

Other fascinating facts:

Both KT and baby are putting on some serious weight at this point. KT will probably gain about a pound a week for the next few weeks, with half of that poundage bulking up baby. He'll likely double his weight in the next eight weeks.

Ever wonder what your baby is doing in there these days? He's busy blinking, looking around, grabbing things, making faces, practicing his breathing, peeing and listening to everything around him—pretty much exactly what he'll be doing for the first three months of his life, sans the adoring audience and the flashing camera.

Your baby may (or may not) have a full head of hair now.

By the end of this week, your baby will weigh about 4 pounds and measure over 17 inches long—about the length of a hot pair of above-the-knee boots. Christian Louboutin? Manolo Blahnik? We're thinking Isaac Mizrahi for Target—you've got a nursery to furnish!

Do these crazy emotions ever end???

The ups the downs, the worry, the excitement... Its all very draining. Don't get me wrong, I am far from complaining. We are overjoyed with our upcoming trip for the delivery of our baby, but at every turn, I go from zero to 60 with my emotions. I have so much fear and anxiety of being prepared before we leave for India, during the trip and after arrival. I wonder if we will have everything we need, and will everything fall into place? Once we arrive home will we have it all together, both physically and mentally? Did we buy the best of all the right stuff from pacifiers, to bottles to diapers? I keep trying to tell myself that every new mother goes through these emotions and feelings. But, its not helping!!! I want to be the perfect Mom. I don't want to make any mistakes. I want my child to love me even though I don't have any genetic link to them. I wonder how we will explain this crazy journey of love to them when they are old enough to understand? What if I get this precious angel in my arms and I don't know what to do? I hope to be a natural, and it all come to me once my baby is in my arms, but I am scared to death. I just want to be in control and confident and I feel so out of control and stressed. I prayed to God every night that he would bring me this amazing gift and now I hope I don't let him down. My Mom is the best Mom in the world and I hope to be even be 1/2 the mother she has been to me. Always proud of me, no matter how badly I screwed up. She has given me and all her children endless love and support and never, ever gave up on us. She is my inspiration and I do not want to disappoint her or Gerry or my baby.

I suppose only time will tell and that time is ticking down week by week. Our angel will be here before we know it and I suppose I will be jumping in with both feet and there will be no looking back. Please say a prayer and wish me luck...

We finally got Dr. Shaunak's images from our visit in April...Here is our babe!

My dear sweet puppy Frankie has given me a few scares lately. She is 13.5 and not getting any younger. When we got back from our last trip to India she wasn't quite herself. I passed it off as, 'she just missed us' and figured she would come around in a few days. I was outside with her one afternoon and she had some sort of episode (she got all stiff, and and her breathing was funky and her eyes were fixed). I don't know much about dog conditions, but I thought it may be a seizure of some sort and rushed her to the vet. A million blood tests (including a $150.00 valley fever test) and a full examine later, and she came back with a clean bill of health. She went back to her normal fun, spunky self and my worry ended, up until a few weekends back when we were up at the cabin and she did it again. Every day I wake up and she is not right there beside me I panic. Every day I come home from work and can't find her I panic. I worry I may find her sick, or unresponsive, or worst of all passed away. I am so very happy for the many, many years I have had her in my life. I can't remember my life before she was apart of it. She has been an amazing companion and best friend and daughter I could ever have wished for. She and I have been through SO much over the years. She always knows when I am sad and never leaves my side. She gives me endless, unconditional love and I just can't even imagine one day, one hour or one minute without her in my life. I can't constantly worry about this, as I know it will inevitably happen one day, but I am not ready now and probably never will be ready to let her go. I want her to meet her new brother/sister. I want to have family fun with the 4 of us. Why did God create dogs to only stay with us for such a short time? They are such wonderful creatures and bring so much joy to our lives, and its just not fair to not have them last a human lifetime. If I could clone her I would. She is such a huge part of our family and I have been so blessed to have such a perfect, sweet, lovely animal to call mine. Please God, keep her with us for as long as she is healthy and well.


On the career front, I am enjoying my new job and the hours are great. I get home and don't know what to do with myself. On July 3rd I put up some American flags at my desk (thanks Honey) and it sparked conversation with one of my residents. I told him about Gerry and his 2 tours of duty to Iraq/Kuwait serving both Canada in 1999, and the U.S in 2004. He shared with me his tour in Korea. It was really neat to be able to open the mind of someone with Dementia, and for images and memories to be so clear to him. Those are just some of the reasons I do what I do ever day. These people bring such smiles and joy to my life.

Gerry loves, loves, loves his shift and Fire Dept. he has had more fires in the last 3 months there, then in has at any other Fire Dept. That is the exciting stuff for him, to be able to put to use what he is trained to do. Not to mention the capturing 6 ft. snakes, intoxicated people, getting hugs and answering questions from toddlers, picking old folks off the floor of the casino, and so much more that his does as part of his job. He has a new story for me every single day. It makes me proud that he is living his dream.

I was able to see him in Fire Fighter action this July 4th as I made the trip out to Ak-Chin, the Indian community where he works, to watch the fireworks and spend time with him. Gerry was on the Engine and had to be prepared for any firework mishaps...thankfully there were none. It was a beautiful display, and I couldn't help but imagine how wonderful it will be next year with our little one in our arms to share in the moment. We have SO many wonderful holidays and just 'every' days to come that will bring unforgettable memories as a family.

The last Hurrah...or so to speak!

We had a wonderful weekend together. We spent the night away at one of our favorite spots up north in Pine Top in a log cabin in the woods. It was just the 3 of us (yes, of course Frankie too). We figured it was going to be our last small vacation for quite awhile of romantic, quiet, alone time. So we took advantage of it and of course ended up spending the entire time talking about how drastically our lives will be changed forever, how excited we are for our baby to arrive and what wonderful vacations we have in the coming years, which will now be the 4 of us going away for fun.

We are busy, busy (What else is new???): ...

We are preparing and sending my Indian Visa off for renewal. We are applying for a 5 year Visa for me this time and hoping they will send me a 10 year like they did Gerry.

Completing all the finishing touches on the Rain Forest themed nursery, from painting to putting up fake vines, to designing, drawing and hand painting a growth chart for our little one (I am especially proud of that one as I haven't used my art skills since high school), installing a TV and DVD player so Daddy and watch all the Disney video's with his little angel (yep he has already started).

We scheduled a consultation with a local pediatrician that my dear friend and beautician recommended to us. Ironically his name is Dr. Gentile (what a perfect name for a baby Doc) and we have heard wonderful things about his practice and can't wait to meet him and talk vaccines, baby check ups and all that new parent stuff.

Preparing for a party here at our home for family and friends to share in the celebration of our little angel. We are going to show pics of India, enjoy some Indian dishes and finger foods, karaoke, swim and have a few cocktails. Just pure celebration and fun!

We will start packing our bags this month for travel to India which will include washing onesies...oh my I certainly do have my work cut out for me there!!!!

We got our latest update on our surrogate KT. The Docs have been in contact with Dr. Soni who just did a checkup on KT and the baby last week. Both are doing great and much to our surprise KT may even go to term. Her cervical stitch is holding just fine and baby is right where it needs to be. WHEW...that gives a few extra weeks to get ready, hopefully!

We are already at 30 weeks and time is flying by.

So many baby pick ups and new cycles are right around the corner for so many of our on-line friends. Carrie Jo and Shawn, Chaya and her hubby, Stephanie and her hubby (I am sure I am forgetting a few more) are picking babies up very, very soon. Kerrie and Marc and Daria and hubby are heading to Mumbai for their first cycles. What excitement! I remember our first trip well over a year ago and it will remain near and dear to our hearts forever. We wish all of these couples and so many others wonderful, successful and safe trips to India. Just enjoy, take every moment in from meeting your surrogate, experiencing India, to seeing your babe for the very first time. It has been such a pleasure to share in all of this with so many of you all over the world.

Can't forget my Canadian buddies on July 1st... Happy Canada Day!



Your Baby at 30 weeks:

Big news for baby's brain this week: It's starting to wrinkle and fold and looks like something that grew in the back of your fridge. This is due to the rapid growth of your little genius's brain cells.

Other highlights this week:

Fingernails and toenails are finally finished—causing his or her parents great fear and anguish the first time they try to cut those little daggers (it gets easier, we promise)! Plus, the bone marrow is completely in charge of red-blood-cell production now. Trust us, this is a good thing.

Baby is starting to shed his lanugo—the downy hair that was covering his skin. Now that he's chubbier and better able to regulate his body temp, he doesn't need to sport a fur coat 24/7.

"I spy an umbilical cord and the inside of my mom's uterus!" When your baby is awake, his eyes are now wide open and he's whittling away the hours looking around, checking out his rather dark, limited environs.

Your baby hasn't gained much weight or height this week, as most of his energy's been channeled to the brain. He weighs about 3 pounds and is approximately 15.5 inches long, about the size of London, not the city, Britney Spears' Yorkie terrier. Of course your baby is less hairy and way cuter!

Past the 28 week mark...

We are kinda out of the woods at this point. I don't want to count our chicken before its hatched, but according to the high risk Perinatal specialist we saw a year ago, if we make it to 28 weeks we can deliver a healthy baby! WHEW!!!! I am so relieved we made it this far.

I keep getting the same question...'You must be so excited?'

Yes, very, very excited, but scared and worried and overwhelmed all at the same time too.

Do we have everything ready? Will our baby be healthy? Will KT have an uneventful delivery? Will we be there in time for the birth? Will we be able to make all the legal stuff fall into place when we get to India? How long will we have to be in India? How much time will I take off of work/can afford to take off of work? What are we going to do about childcare? A full time live-in Nanny? A part-time day caretaker in our home during the weekdays? What will it be like to function on NO sleep? How amazing will it be to stare into my baby's eyes while I hold them in my arms? How wonderful it will feel to walk into our ready, but empty nursery and see our little angel lying in the crib? How drastically our life will change literally over night!

So many thoughts and so little time to sort it all out. I am sure it will all fall into place, but until then, a million unanswered questions run through my mind. Let's hope that baby just stays put until it is good and ready to make it's grand entrance into the world.

Your Baby at 29 weeks:

Having a baby prematurely is frightening, no doubt. But here's a reason to relax: Due to the impressive advancements of medical technology, if your baby is born this week, she'd have a 9 out of 10 chance of survival, which is seriously great news.

Other awesome developments:

Baby's brain can now control her breathing and body temperature. She can also cough, and her sucking abilities have been perfected. Your Mini's skin is looking less wrinkled as she packs on the pounds. She's starting to look more like a Pampers model and less like a Depends model. She's now beefing up on the energizing and insulating white fat she'll be born with (unfortunately, white fat is not energizing and insulating for adults!). And speaking of energy, your little Energizer Bunny is on fire these days. KT is sure to feel your share of kicks, punches and elbows, especially when she's lying down. This week your baby is a little over 15 inches long—about the length of a loaf of bread—and weighs about 3 pounds, as much as a Macbook Air laptop.

What our baby might look like at 29 weeks.

Why surrogacy in India??? Our story...

This is a question we get asked quite frequently. So, for those of you who are interested, I thought I would share a bit of what brought us to this leg of our journey in our attempt to have a family.

First I must say, like most woman who are not born with any reproductive issues of any kind, I never thought for one minute I would not get pregnant, carry my baby and ultimately be a mother someday.

Once Gerry and I both decided it was time to start trying for a family, everything happened quite quickly.

I was almost 35 (the age that Docs feel you are starting to get 'over the hill' in the reproductive world) and so when things weren't progressing as we planned (AKA no pregnancy) we decided it was time to visit my OBGYN for answers. Because of my advancing age (35-so OLD!) he was able to get me in for testing right away and not have to go through that 'try for a year and if no results, come back and see me' phase. We were both thankful for that.

I wasn't really freaked out, or worried, but just anxious to get a move on all this baby making stuff.

Gerry had already done his part (long story) so we knew his swimmers were working just fine. So I went for a 'routine' HSG and the results were ambiguous. Word to the wise, go to an RE (Reproductive Endocrinologist) to have the test done as most Radiologists are not experts in where to and how to find things in order to get accurate results. Sorry to my Radiologist friends...

We had our first RE consultation in Florida and we loved the Doc, he was very informative and really included us both in every aspect so much so that when he did my exam, he had Gerry down there stating, 'Oh look what I found!' You are about to get a little TMI, so feel free to skip this part if you choose too...Okay, so picture me on the table flat on my back the with my legs in the stirups and both Gerry, the nurse and the Doc all down there knowing what is going on and I am in the dark and saying, 'hello, can you share a little with the lady you are both staring and poking at's private parts?' What he was showing Gerry, much to my amazement after 20 years of Pap Smears and no sign of this...my 2, (yes that is right) 2 vaginal canals each with its own cervix. Without any trouble this amazingly skilled RE found something odd. What he said was that it would be very hard for any Doc to find, unless they were actually looking for it and when he started looking, the thin flap of skin that he found stuck to the left side of my canal with the q-tip had a life of its own. Who knew??? Certainly not me! He began to ask me a lot of simple questions about years past and menstrual cycles, etc and it all fell into place. For those of you wondering, I have normal healthy cycles (only once a month like every one else...thank goodness!) BUT its kinda like a crap shoot to know what ovary I am ovulating from each month. This is one of our problems. My right side (my dominate side that we 'knew' about) is fine, normal and A-okay. My left side, is much smaller and pretty much a virgin in all sense of the word when it comes to the word. So...if I am ovulating from the left side chances are when we try the old fashion way, that we would unlikely have success in the little swimmers finding their way to my egg that was coming down from the left.

The Doc scheduled me for further tests and of all those months hoping and praying that my period wouldn't come, this was the one month that I was really wanting my cycle to start so I could get on with things. Low and behold it didn't start and shortly after we found out we were PREGNANT! So yes, sometimes, relaxation and NOT trying too hard does work. We found out our little one was tucked in on my right uterus on the outer side wall and looked good. I had a very uneventful pregnancy, no bleeding no cramping...nothing. We went in for our routine 7.5 week ultrasound only to find out there was no heartbeat. We were both devastated! What had gone wrong? Had I done something I wasn't supposed to? Did I take something I shouldn't have before I knew I was pregnant? No answers, just 'one of those things.' Both my Mom and my sister helped us through having suffered from a miscarriage themselves. We tried to remain positive as the Doc said the good news is that we now know you CAN get pregnant which for some woman never happens and there are no answers and no tests to confirm why.

So we healed and moved forward. Moving to Arizona and starting a new path in our lives. Trying and waiting and hoping and praying that we would find ourselves pregnant once again.

After a year of that and no such luck, we went back to the drawing board with my new OBGYN(Dr. Lindstrom) and now an RE, Dr. Johnson to do my HSG. Results were good, 2 definite sides, no septum to separate the uterus's, a true DIDELPHUS UTERUS (it had a name). All tubes patent and good. We were pleased, except for one comment...'I would recommend you try surrogacy in your case.' HUH? But we were pregnant before and why now this?

My funky uterus's

So, off to the High-Risk Perinatal Specialist Dr. Elliott. He looked at our tests and said, 'I have delivered healthy babies with women with a 'Didelphus uterus' but chances are you will be on bed rest early on in your pregnancy and likely will deliver pre-term.' Of course the best layman's term of all asked by Gerry which I am thankful for to this day, 'So, if one woman's uterus is a size 10, what would Rhonda's 2 uterus's each size be?' The answer, well about a 6 and a 6. Okay, well not the greatest news, but... we were prepared and could handle that. If some women have 2, 3 or more babies in a size 10, surely I could have one in a size 6?!? However wonderful this Doc was, he could only help us once we were pregnant and that unfortunately, we were not at that stage right now.

So, back to the OBGYN for his thoughts. He sadly had to agree with the RE...'I think adoption or surrogacy is your best option.' We left the office that day feeling beaten up and worn out. Not the news we had expected....

We looked into Adoption, both domestic and International. Holy Moly, the red tape! The home study which requires medical testing, physical (a certain BMI, no heart disease, etc.) emotional and mental testing(no psychiatric medications including antidepressants for at least 2 years), your financial history (all assets, credit cards, bank statements and W2's and bankruptcies), animals (Dog's tag numbers), pool safety, 5 reference letters, some Social Worker to come into your home and determine if you will make a 'fit parent', etc. etc. etc. The cost of $30,000 plus. Not to mention the big kicker...the wait! 2-3 years (now longer) for international and the same, if not longer, for domestic (waiting for birth parents to 'choose' you, only to be able to change their minds at the time of the birth) for an infant. More disappointment!

So fast forward to surrogacy... NOT Gerry's first option in fact he was completely opposed to it. But, he was accepting to look into all our options for a family. So, I set up a meeting with one of my nurse's from work, who just happened to be a retired surrogate (thanks Angie). Amazingly, Gerry was very open-minded about it and realized this may be one of our only options if we wanted a family now. We talked for hours about the process here in the U.S and the cost and all that it entailed. We left feeling better, but sunk...how could we afford $50,000 - $80,000 dollars or more, just the IVF alone (that our insurance didn't cover) would be $20-$25,000!!! UGH... what to do, what to do...

What about this thing I saw on the internet about surrogacy in India??? So, I began my search and Googled and looked and tried to find support groups and any bit of information I could find. There was very little information to be found (hence one of the very reasons for our blog).

During my search I found 2 clinics. Dr.Patel from Anand, India who had been shown on the Oprah show and was now very popular. The second clinic was Surrogacy India. I liked their web site which was very informative, but knew nothing about them. We contacted both clinics via email. Ultimately deciding on Surrogacy India (SI) for a number of reasons.

This is/was why...

Dr. Sudhir the administrator and co-founder, answered every one of our numerous (almost daily) questions promptly and detailed. We called and spoke with him and Dr. Yashodhara both on the phone and found them to be kind, patient and honest. We liked the way the contract read. There was a minimal fee required to get the process started. So we jumped in with both feet.

After arriving in Mumbai we met both Dr. Sudhir (an MD specializing in Administration and management) and Dr. Yashodara (a Fertility Specialist) the next day for lunch. We both felt an immediate connection to them. To this day we say we would be friends with them even if they weren't our Doctors they are 'just that kind of people.' There was no talk of money or cost, we just talked about the process and what was in store for us. We felt totally at ease and 100% confident in our decision to go with this clinic.

Just part of the SI team: Dr. Sudhir and Dr. Yashodhara

They are located in Mumbai a major city, for ease of travel and accommodations as well as access to major medical facilities.

They are a 'one stop shop' assisting with accommodations, travel, providing us a surrogate and egg donor, the doctors and medical facilities we would be using, the legal contract and lawyers to assist with that, etc. etc.

We were given a cell phone for our use while in Mumbai to use locally and contact both the Doctors day or night with any questions.

We were provided with drivers to pick us up at the airport and help us to navigate to appointments and around Mumbai during our off time.

We were assisted in making a personal vacation get-away while staying in Mumbai (accommodations, travel and activities).

We had our choice of many surrogates prior to arriving and then having the pleasure to meet her and her family and spend time getting to know her through an interpretator.

We had a back up surrogate prepared and on hand in case of emergencies or unforeseen issues, (which in our case came in handy).

We were assisted by SI staff with hospital check in and discharge during my stay for embryo pick up (and even had the pleasure of Dr. Yash being right there beside me the entire time).

We had the choice of using other Doctors or hospitals if we wanted, but not knowing India we trusted in both our Doctors to determine what was best for us.

We met with all of our extremely talented and skilled physicians while there, having personal consultations and learning about their credentials. Each and everyone of them walked us through the entire procedures and steps along the way.

Meet our Doctors and medical team (click on photo to see more)

Medical Pics Rounds #1 and #2 (click on photos to see more)

We requested and were granted a personal tour of Hiranandani Hospital where our baby will be born with the OBGYN (Dr. Anita Soni), who is caring for and will be delivering our baby.

We were consulted at every moment while in India and since returning home about fertilization, medication dose changes, embryo quality, transfer of embryo's, tests and procedures, etc. a long the way.

We were both also able to go in with our surrogate during her embryo transfer.

We visited the clinic in which our surrogate would stay while waiting during the 2 weeks for the pregnancy results. We learned that once pregnant, she had the choice of moving into a new place arranged by SI or receiving the funds to pay where they are currently staying as long as it met certain standards (separate bathroom, running water, electricity and close distance to the delivering Hospital and clinic).

We learned that our surrogate will have a caretaker to assist with cooking and cleaning while at home and assistance from SI staff in coordinating and attending each and every MD appointment she has.

That any time her spouse has to miss work to accompany her to appointments, he will be compensated.

That she received emotional counseling throughout the process.

That I am able to go in for the delivery of our child (and with her permission, Gerry can as well) pending certain circumstances.

We receive a personal itinerary of all the events that will take place from the moment we start the program up to and including our birth. Appointments, scans, lab work, etc. and can access it any time via the internet and see all our uploaded reports.

That we had a list of detailed costs presented to us from day one and when each payment was due along the way. Any changes due to unforeseen circumstances with the surrogate and her pregnancy were communicated to us prior to payment.

That we can contact her OBGYN at any time and talk with her via phone for any updates.

I am sure I am forgetting a lot of stuff, as it has been a year and a half now that we have been on this part of our journey.

Although it took us 3 attempts (first 2 with our embryo's and 3rd with an egg donor) we have never once regretted our decision to pursue Surrogacy in India with Surrogacy India (SI).

We get this question all the time and often, 'why you chose Surrogacy India (SI)?' So I hope this lengthy post has answered some of those questions and possibly helps others along in their own personal journeys.

In the end, our dreams will have come true and our countless prayers will have been answered ...our little angel is due this Sept 2009. We are eternally grateful to SI and the entire team who has gotten us to this stage in our journey. It has been worth every hurdle that we have had to negotiate and all of the tears and pain that we have experienced along the way.


All of the very best in your own personal journey's...Rhonda and Gerry.